Sara Schoenbeck / Wayne Horvitz
This interview with Wayne Horvitz and Sara Schoenbeck was conducted by email during March 2020.
Tony Reif: So who came up with this great idea to play as a duo? Was there some aha moment between the two of you, or did one of you think of it first? Wayne, if the idea came from you, what made this a more compelling proposition than creating a duo with another wind player you share a history with, or a string or even brass player? Sara, if it came from you, what were your reasons/desires around this duo?
Wayne Horvitz: We actually recorded a duo on the Gravitas CD 15 years ago, which was prescient. Sara has been a guest on a lot of gigs with other bands of mine, and we have often set aside a duo in a set. More recently I had a show in Chicago and just invited Sara out for that and we did a few more. At that point it was clear we should keep doing this.
Sara Schoenbeck: Wayne’s Gravitas Quartet involving Ron Miles, Peggy Lee and myself was, for me, the perfect blend of thru composed chamber music and improvisation, always authentic in its transparent and quiet beauty. Some years and projects later Wayne invited me to join a solo concert of his in Chicago. It was a revelation of common language and a relief to play in a duo setting for the expressive yet quiet bassoon. I find great pleasure in this duo particularly because we often walk between the worlds of improvisation and notated chamber music.
TR: Could you both fill us in on some of the highlights of playing together over these 20 years?
WH: In addition to Gravitas, Sara has also been in another bad of mine, Some Places Are Forever Afternoon. All along Sara has guested, often, with my ensemble Sweeter Than the Day. She also has performed as an improvising soloist in a number of my classical pieces, including a piece for orchestra and my string quartet “These Hills of Glory.” More recently Sara has joined the Snowghost Trio on quite a few shows. A lot of different music!
SS: Also worth mentioning is that we originally met in 2000, along with Peggy Lee, at Vancouver’s improvisation festival Time Flies, which gave Wayne the idea to put Gravitas together. It’s a satisfying full circle moment to have our duo come out on your Vancouver label Songlines.
TR: One thing that I think will immediately strike most listeners is what an interesting, and beautiful, match the piano and bassoon make just in terms of how they sound together. The bassoon is of course an orchestral and chamber wind instrument and it hasn’t been taken up very widely in jazz and improv. Sara, you’ve done more I think than any other bassoon player to bring the instrument into that context and develop its expressive potential while retaining an impeccable classical sound as your fallback. What is at the root of this sonic and expressive synergy – both in a more or less inside, composed-piece context and in a wilder, free improv one?
SS: I have always been interested in bringing the bassoon into as many musical arenas as possible with the hopeful outcome of growth and expression for both the instrument and myself. There are many innate qualities that fuel my love for the bassoon. It is a very flexible instrument that allows for large leaps and sotto voce possibilities, and the unique mechanics of the modern bassoon make it a natural for the exploration of non-traditional extended techniques. The impetus to work with improvisation and extended technique has always been due to a compulsion to widen my pallette of artistic expression. I do lean towards sound that is “beautiful,” be it the interpretation of a written line, a microtonal phrase or texture. I am personally very excited that there are so many more bassoonists improvising and inserting the bassoon into different settings and sound worlds.
TR: Wayne, the four pieces on which you employ electronics were recorded half a year after the main session. What did you want to bring to the record that it didn’t already have, and specifically what electronics are you using? And Sara, did the electronics affect your playing vis-à-vis the acoustic session, and have you ever used electronics yourself?
WH: Well some of it was just pragmatic. We didn’t record that stuff at Pyatt Hall, partly because we focused so much on the written material, just getting it right. After it was all done we both felt that some more open playing was missing, and also the sonic elements we can explore when I incorporate the electronics. As for the gear, it’s pretty basic. Sometimes I use a Max MSP patch – especially if I am travelling a lot – but it just simulates my pedal set up which is a tremolo, an 8 second delay, a simple delay and a reverb pedal.
SS: It is easy to fall into musical patterns when improvising. The electronics, even if they are subtle, shake us into a different sonic space which is decidedly refreshing. As far as me using electronics – I have a pickup and a couple of pedals I use, especially in larger ensembles. I am a self-proclaimed luddite though. My main interest is in finding acoustic sounds that mimic the electronic and industrial worlds.
TR: Wayne, there are a two compositions of yours here (“American Bandstand” and “Ironbound”) that date back some 20 years, and both have already appeared on multiple releases of yours – in fact “Ironbound” was on your previous Songlines record The Snowghost Sessions, and you’ve also brought back a more recent composition from that record, “No Blood Relation.” Not that this is anything unusual, but I’m wondering how you think about your canon and what makes some pieces ones you particularly like to return to in different contexts. And which pieces were composed for the duo?
WH: Well we actually do a lot of older pieces live, but these three made it on the record. “No Blood Relation” in particular is a piece we perform every gig. Sara had played “Ironbound“ with Sweeter Than the Day and It sort of leads us in a direction we might not otherwise go so it’s very useful in that way. “American Bandstand” has been at her request, and it definitely creates a zone we might not otherwise get to.
TR: Sara, could you comment on how you decided on your two pieces here, “Deep Well Well” and “Marcuselle” (nice titles!)? And were they composed for the duo?
SS: I am not known for putting notes on the page. I have quite a few compositions that are just for solo bassoon based on outline form composition which allows me freedom to shape a structure for each performance. I have been chided for this as other people aren’t able to play these works but perhaps this is by design. These two pieces actually made it on the page quite a while ago but like everything I do they are very much not set in stone. Lines and sections have been added and taken away to suit me and the musical project. At times the only thing that is similar from iteration to iteration is the title itself. With this being said, there are sections of each piece that are specifically written for this duo. The original version of “Marcuselle “was written to honor the memory of a dear bassoonist friend.
TR: The acoustic session was recorded in a recently built 120 seat hall in Vancouver that is mostly used for unamplified chamber music and other classical concerts. Wayne, what drew you to that space for this recording, and how were the instruments miced and mixed, especially re close mics vs. hall sound? Was it easy to get just what you were after sonically? Also, what piano were you playing on – it sounds excellent to my (highly) non-specialist ears.
WH: The piano is a very beautiful and beautifully maintained Steinway D. Fairly modern I believe. I felt strongly that we should record in a hall, because I felt that our best gigs had been in halls. It’s harder in some ways and there is less control; the stereo mics are the main mics so there isn’t much mixing to be done past a certain point, so the ensemble playing has to be right in the recording. We spent some time working on it but it came together fairly quickly, and there are some close mics which we used in the mix when we could.
TR: Where did the title “Cell Walk” come from? The title, and the sleeve/digital booklet’s imagery (Nica Horvitz’s photos) could possibly suggest contemporary American socio-political references and concerns. Do you think of this record as in some sense engaged art, and what does that mean in today’s world? If there are implicit “messages” underlying this project, what kinds of things would you like people to take away from it?
WH: “Cell Walk” was written in memory of Cecil Taylor right after he passed, but I had no desire to make a thing about it. The reference in the title is simply to “Cell Walk for Celeste,” a title from an early Cecil record that I always liked. I looked around and could not find an explanation for the title, so I just went with it.
The record has no political implications. I consider myself a reasonably engaged person politically, and I have even written a few pieces that reflect on social issues, generally through the lens and narrative of historical events, (e.g. Joe Hill, the Everett Massacre etc.). In general I am allergic to making claims to political action or even commentary in art, and find many if not most attempts lacking. I tend to leave those aspirations to actions I take more directly. What does inspire me in music is how its language speaks to an entirely different strata of our experience. Music can move people in ways that rhetoric cannot. I’d rather use my different language resources for what they are best at. I have written about this a little more in an essay that people can find here if they are interested: http://www.waynehorvitz.com/writing/joe-hill-and-the-promise-of-art-and-politics/
TR: Now that you have this smashing record under your belts and have been touring the duo since 2018, where do you see it going in the future? Are you thinking about adding a guest artist (maybe a percussionist?) where it’s not difficult to so do, e.g. for gigs in NY or Seattle?
WH: We play with guest artists often and I am sure will continue, but we have no plans to make a trio or quartet. We pretty much feel as if we are just getting going and want to explore this for some time to come! That being said we do have some guests on upcoming shows in Seattle and LA, and especially if we have two sets it’s a nice way to keep things fresh, and work with friends old and new.