Peter Epstein & Brad Shepik
This interview with Peter Epstein and Brad Shepik was conducted by email from March to June 2005.
Tony Reif: This project began with you, Peter, saying you’d like to do another record with Brad (the last one I believe being Brad’s The Well in 2000); how did the group become this trio with Matt and how did the repertoire and the music take shape?
Brad Shepik: Peter had set aside some time to do a recording and we decided to add a third person on percussion. I had been playing with Matt in Simon Shaheen’s band, and also Matt Darriau’s band, so I suggested it to Peter and that was that. The actual preparation for the recording happened in two or three days of rehearsal. Peter and I brought in several tunes to find some things that worked. We also wanted to record some free improvisations, a couple of which ended up on the record.
Peter Epstein: When I first began thinking about this project the idea was simply based on the fact that playing with Brad has always felt extremely easy and natural. I have always loved playing in duo and trio settings and so a duo project with Brad seemed like it would lead to some really great music. Due to the fact that during this period I relocated to Reno, Nevada, the project was also something that would have to come together with a minimum of rehearsal. Again, Brad is a natural for such a project because it has always felt so effortless to play with him. I had never met Matt before but after hearing the recording that Brad sent it was very easy to envision a trio.
Musically, Brad and I have played so many different styles together, and I’ve heard him play many more with other folks, that rather than aiming the band in a particular direction, I was interested in the very eclecticism that is exhibited by the individuals in the group. In other words: I was interested in anything that any of us brought in. There is a world music element here, as there has been on The Loan and The Well and many other projects that the three of us have been involved in, but not exclusively. Here and there, one might be able to hear a bit of India, the Balkans, or the Middle East…
TR: Well, more than a bit. One thing that I personally am interested in is the inspirations and influences that resurface in these tunes. Part of what makes the record rather special, I think, is the way the different elements play out effortlessly in combination. It seems that neither you nor Brad sit down to write a tune these days (or at least these tunes) with a blueprint so to speak. In other words, it’s not a matter of consciously taking this mode or that rhythm or some melodic contour, each connected with a different music, and seeing how they could be fitted together, but rather letting these elements come together as they will, if that makes sense. Brad wrote:
“In terms of musical style I’m not able to dissect the influences in a definitive way, but I was looking for material that we could have some fun with as a group.”
This seems to imply that the influences have been so assimilated that he isn’t consciously thinking about them (or anyway some of what goes into his tunes) as belonging to this or that tradition anymore. I mean, one still has to take a rhythm (say the 9/4 of “Monsaraz”), and presumably that has some associations for you, perhaps with some Balkan tradition? And similarly the melodic material, modes, scales etc. all have roots somewhere. So how did they end up as these tunes? Do they get so transformed in the process that it isn’t so clear anymore exactly what came from where? I’m always curious about these things.
PE: I think that at this point in my life, I have lost track of exactly “what” I’m trying to do or “where” something came from. In the case of “Monsaraz,” yes the modes are clearly looking east so to speak. But there is also a form and chord progression which is influenced as much by a 12-bar blues as it is by Moroccan/Turkish/Arabic/Balkan/Romany music. As is often the case, the meter was only determined when I stopped to count out the original melody I started singing to myself.
I really wanted to do a project where we could also include sounds more associated with America: jazz, blues, and various forms of popular music. So there is a bit of leaping around from reference to reference, but that’s almost on purpose; what’s of real interest here for me is the way in which we can play these very disparate sounds in the creation of an album where the commitment and communication within the group tempers those differences by establishing a group sound/concept that remains consistent and personal throughout.
TR: Yes, the group sound is striking. For me it has something to do with a combination of elegance, transparent textures (in the percussion too), highly melodic improvising (and certain shared approaches to elaborating melody and rhythm), enjoyment in making music Ð a centered, tempered quality to the playing, but always with the potential to turn up the heat.
As for the American side of the record, what other forms of popular music do you see here? And how specifically does the jazz tradition enter into the composing? (Of course it’s always there in the playing.)
PE: I think my response above covers it. That blues influence is also very strong in “Miro.” As far as the jazz tradition entering into the composing process, I feel like I have no more “control” over that than I do when I’m improvising. It’s all mixed up inside of me (us) and I just hope that what comes out is coherent, positive and honest.
TR: Could you talk a bit about how this music expands upon your previous projects? What’s new to the mix? Or is it more a refinement of well-established directions, such as the Balkan and middle-eastern themes and rhythms of The Loan and The Well? Peter, has your work on M-A Recordings with or by Portuguese pianist Joao Paulo, Greek/Brazilian pianist Marcel Zarvos, and American/Serbian guitarist Miroslav Tadic filtered into this project at all?
BS: It’s a trio without a bass instrument so in some ways I relate it to groups that I’ve played in that were bass-less like Babkas and Tiny Bell Trio.
PE: I would love to think of this as a refinement over other projects in my past, and I suppose that it’s safe to say there has been some measure of growth and refinement, but I rarely feel so in control of the various elements involved in the creation of an album. Sure, I compose, think about the music, rehearse and communicate with the group, but there’s also always a “by-the-seat-of-my-pants” quality to the experience for me.
All of those experiences you mention have filtered into this project due to the fact that those are almost all duos or trios. I have been fortunate to have done so much playing in these small configurations and have come to really appreciate the musical and sonic clarity inherent in such a group. More directly: “Monsaraz” was written while I was visiting Monsaraz, an ancient Moorish fort in the Alentege region of Portugal, and “Miro” was written as a small tribute to Miroslav Tadic and all that I have learned from him.
TR: I’m not familiar with Tadic’s playing, but it’s interesting that your tribute is some kind of blues.
PE: Miroslav is not only a world-class classical guitarist and scholar of Balkan folk music, he is one of the greatest blues guitarists I have ever heard. Miro with a strat and a Marshall stack is very dangerous indeed.
TR: All three of you have spent a good deal of time studying traditional music of other cultures and incorporating that knowledge into your own music and performance practice. Peter, this goes back to your studies at California Institute of the Arts where I believe you took several world music courses. Brad, you’ve been interested in Balkan, Arabic, Turkish and Persian music at least as far back as the Tiny Bell Trio’s and Pachora’s beginnings in the early/mid 90s, as well as Paradox Trio. And Matt, apart from his studies at Berklee, studied with Jamey Haddad, and in addition to Paradox Trio and Simon Shaheen has performed with Steve Gorn. What were the musical experiences that drew you into these passionate interests and how did you develop them? Were there any defining moments for you that led to a desire to learn more about these and other musics and work with them in your own music? Were there any fortuitous twists and turns in that process that led to unexpected connections and outcomes?
BS: I would go to used record stores, and borrow things out of the library and from there transcribe and try to play some of the pieces. Later, when I moved to NY, I met a lot of musicians including Matt Darriau. Matt got me started playing with Paradox Trio and gave me tapes, and my interest continued to grow. Through Matt I met Seido Salifoski who got me on Yuri Yunakov’s band. Around the same time Chris Speed started Pachora, which was another avenue for us to explore. The curiosity sparked an interest which continues to grow to this day. Next year I’ll be touring with Turkish dumbek master Burhan Ocal.
PE: My first contact with actual musicians from other cultures as well as any formal approach to learning about other musics was at California Institute of the Arts. CalArts has an amazing jazz program but the world music program is truly unique due to the number of disciplines offered and the level of mastery that exists amongst the faculty. While I was there I studied North and South Indian Classical Music, Balkan Folk Music, and West African Music and Dance. Perhaps it would be better to say that I had a healthy dose of exposure to these things more than that I was a truly dedicated student. I learned enough about things to feel a deep and lasting impact on my conception of music making in general. I also learned enough to know that I personally had no business trying to study Hindustani music as if I would ever actually attempt to perform that music in its pure form. Rather, I have learned to take from things what I can and leave the rest to people who have dedicated their lives to these forms. It’s impossible to articulate what the impact of all of this has been on me. For example, even though I may never try to call myself a Hindustani classical musician, I do have musical thoughts and ideas every single day that can be traced directly to my experiences studying that music.
TR: I find that quite fascinating, because to my (admittedly not very well educated) ear, the Indian elements aren’t obvious the way they are, say, in the playing of Eyvind Kang. But Eyvind has performed quite a lot with Indian musicians, he’s been working on that side of his music for years, developing improvisational approaches that are clearly Indian in their ornamentation and so on.
PE: I think that my relationship to Indian music exists more ‘below the surface.’ I am very intrigued by the Indian approach to pedagogy Ð especially where it applies to rhythm. A general inclination to master and internalize musical elements (or a specific composition) before attempting to actually play it on an instrument is a very powerful approach. It’s a fundamental concept that I have seen rarely in the western pedagogical tradition.
Currently, I teach an upper-division lecture course called Exploring World Music at the University of Nevada, Reno. It is a survey course that delves into the musics and cultures of India, Indonesia, Japan, the Middle East, the Romany, the Balkans, Sub-Saharan Africa, Brazil, Cuba, and North America. Needless to say, the best way to learn about something is to teach it and, to be sure, I have learned much as a result of teaching this course.
TR: I noticed something like an “irama change” at one point in your playing during the second section speed-up up of “Monsaraz.” Are there any African elements you’re aware of in your tunes here?
PE: I wish I knew what an “irama change” was. [It’s a tempo/density change in gamelan music where the density of the elaborating strata of instruments either doubles or is cut in half in relationship to the basic melody as it correspondingly slows down or speeds up.] Perhaps it’s there somewhere or somehow, but it is certainly unintentional. “Here and There” might have some African influence: the tune is in 7, or really 21/8. I was kind of going for a groove that is reminiscent of the many variations of “2 against 3” that occur in so many forms of music in sub-Saharan Africa, especially Anlo-Ewe music. Again, I more or less heard it and then tried to figure out what it was so there wasn’t much forethought involved. Frankly, there rarely is.
TR: Despite all these influences from other cultures and musics (including reggae, and west African), this is a jazz record and of course there are some pieces that are firmly in the jazz tradition without much reference to world music. Could you however say something about what “jazz” means to you today in the context of all these other musics, how jazz informs what you’re doing here? Not that I want to quibble over definitions of jazz or anything else, but what does the title of the record (and name of the group), “Lingua Franca,” mean to you?
BS: For me the jazz element of Lingua Franca is in the improvising and in the way the trio shapes the music collectively from moment to moment. The title “Lingua Franca” suggests to me “a common language” which is something that human beings everywhere can share in.
PE: I suppose my response to this question could be a reworking (direct inversion?) of my response to the first question. For me, more and more, it’s all becoming the same thing. That’s a very personal statement, however. I wouldn’t be so quick to claim that it is so for the whole jazz world though there does seem to be continued momentum in that direction. In a way, I suppose I am my own melting pot. All of these different sounds and concepts have gone in but what comes out is something unlike any of the original sounds. That’s not to say that I have ended up with one way of playing. Perhaps one way of saying it is that being a “jazz musician” now means that we can (without significantly raising eyebrows) call a Balkan tune, free improvisation or an original the way we used to call a waltz, ballad, or bebop tune (even alongside the waltz, ballad, or bebop tune).
The title “Lingua Franca” was my idea. For me, personally, it refers less to a concept involving the overlapping of various musical cultures and has more to do with overlapping musicians and personal musical concepts, with each musician representing a distinct musical culture unto themselves. Another level of meaning: this project involves multiple musical languages in the sense that it is neither a world music album nor a jazz album exclusively. It’s one thing to make a hybrid of different styles or genres, it’s yet another to create a whole album where even different forms of hybrids can coexist.
TR: Nicely put. Where do you guys want to take the group from here musically? And are there any tours in the offing?
PE: Anywhere and everywhere. I am very excited about the musical future of this band but I personally don’t have a clear vision for the “next step.” We could easily do an album of Tin Pan Alley standards or Bossa Nova tunes or free improvisations. Perhaps a project could evolve that is about a very “acoustic” or “electronic” approach to the material and playing. Or, obviously it could be more of the same: a few more examples of anything and everything. I think the latter is most likely.
BS: I hope we can get a chance to play some concerts and see where the music takes us. We’ll be working towards that in the coming year.