Gordon Grdina (VIII)

This interview with Gordon Grdina was conducted via email during February 2020.

Tony Reif: This album impresses in a lot of ways – for example its seriousness at times; its playfulness at other times; and the fact that it takes the listener on a journey to quite a variety of musical spaces and emotional places along a trajectory that, for me anyway, hangs together as a unified experience rather than a set of individual pieces. In other words, it flows, and it seems to flow with intention, with a progressive deepening of expression and expansion of musical possibilities. I’m wondering how much of this (if any) was an express aim of yours and how much of it developed gradually as the band gained more experience playing together and the pieces came together in performance and the studio. Did you already have a sequence in mind when you went into the studio?

Gordon Grdina: It’s a little of both. The pieces hanging together and having a connection is very specific and predetermined but that is mainly because of the band playing together so much. We’ve all really developed a rapport and gotten deeper musically as a group. Everyone loves playing together and I think this shows in the cohesion and dedication. That sense of seriousness and playfulness is real. We are all very dedicated to creating the best music we can, and I think to do that there needs to also be a sense of joy and open freedom to let the unexpected develop.

This is also the first time that we shared composition duties. Mark and Hamin have both written beautiful pieces that retain the group aesthetic while pushing the group forward into new territory.

TR: It’s worth quoting your note about the record: “This recording carries on the development of the ensemble from where Ejdeha left off. The group is defining its own aesthetic, combining aspects of the Persian dastgah and Arabic maqam systems with free improvisation and harmonic fluidity. The band is dedicated to creating modern music that pays homage to tradition while championing personal expression. The title Safar-e-daroon means ‘inner journey.’ The group as a whole and each of the individual musicians are searching inward to best express their own experience of life, love and sorrow. We hope this music will help the listener on their own Safar-e-daroon.” What has it been like for you taking this inner journey with these musicians, and them with you, into styles and aesthetics of music that they didn’t grow up with (except for Hamin)?

GG: It’s been a great experience playing with these musicians. There was an instant comradery and respect and through playing touring and recording that admiration has gained momentum. The concept and openness to everyone’s personal expressions within a tradition are fully ingrained in the experience now so that there is little need to discuss it. Everyone is extremely dedicated to learning the music and comes having digested the compositions ready to create. There is also a bit of an extended family with Mark Feldman and Mat Maneri, who are equally as dedicated and who add their own dimension to the repertoire.

TR: The record begins with “Safar-e-Daroon” which feels very Arabic in an almost classical way, and your beautiful solo (the piece builds up quite a head of steam going into it) is exciting but seems quite in the tradition compared to some others of yours. Is this then where the journey starts, for you and the listener, immersed in a music that to many probably seems rather foreign?

GG: Yes, that’s very astute. It is the most structured within the maqam system and then the second half is in the Iraqi folk georgina 10/16 rhythm. It is a great send-off point for the ensemble, embracing the tradition with hints of what’s coming next.

TR: “Mini-con” (what’s that referring to?) has a great, high-flying solo by Josh Zubot. In this band the violin chair is sometimes Josh and sometimes Mark Feldman or Mat Maneri, and their styles and effect on the music are quite distinct. How did you decide it would be Josh on the record, and could you say something about he brings to the music?

GG: On the road there was a lot of talk in the band about fake messiahs and semi cults led by charlatans. Their ability to manipulate people is based on consistent cons that have some shred of truth to them. It’s like many little mini-cons leading to a big manipulation. So the song is definitely not a con job or anything… but the melody does lend itself to an ambiguous sense of where the tonic is, so maybe the title is fitting.

Josh is an incredible musician I don’t get to play with enough and every time I do I’m reminded of how amazing he is. He is also extremely busy so when his schedule lined up with our tour before the recording I jumped at the chance. He plays with an intensity and fluidity that I rarely hear. He has a history with many different styles of music and is able to bring out aspects of all of them while maintaining his own voice. He plays with an extra level of fire that is always just bubbling beneath the surface that I really relate to.

TR: Mark Helias composed three of the pieces on this record, and each of them brings something different to the mix, and different from your pieces too. I’m tempted to say that Mark’s pieces are more avant-jazzy than yours here, but he has long experience playing Arabic music so it’s not that he isn’t familiar with middle eastern idioms. Yet both “Calling on You” and “Outsize” don’t sound like they’re based on Arabic or Persian modes. The former is pretty wild and features a long, improvised duo by you and Josh; the latter is interesting rhythmically (it’s very groovy too) as well as melodically, with the arrangement and improvising taking what might be called a “free contrapuntal” approach. Could you comment on that and talk about Mark’s role in the group, how the two of you relate musically after a decade or longer that he’s been collaborating with you?

GG: Yes, I think that’s fair. Mark is an amazing composer and I was very happy that he wanted to write for the group. We didn’t have any discussion about what to write or what direction to take the music in but his pieces turned out to be exactly what the album needed, kind of filling in the holes that I hadn’t written. They are less Arabic sounding and stretch the oud into territory less travelled. It is a language that all of us except maybe Hamin are more familiar with. Hearing those compositions with tombak and this ensemble is exciting and gives a whole other dimension to the ensemble. I feel very fortunate to be able to work so closely with Mark. He is a constant source of inspiration and dedication. Musically we’ve developed a sympatico that makes playing very easy. We can get across a great deal of information instantaneously. He is the solid basis of the music, but due to his deep understanding of the jazz, free improv and the Arabic tradition through his work with Marcel Khalife he creates a fluid movement on the bottom that supports while not directing and tying the music down. It retains a sense of ambiguity that for me is essential to giving the music life.

TR: Hank sounds great in the ensemble but he has fewer solo opportunities than usual, and there’s a story behind that…

GG: Hank had injured his hand before these sessions and was unable to do the tour and record the album with us in Vancouver.  He recorded his parts from his home studio once he had started to recover. During that period he was unable to play for as long as he usually does and was doing one set of music per night etc. We left out places for him to play and he seamlessly fit within the already recorded material. He is such a unique musician with such depth, strength and soul in his playing there was never even a thought of getting another cellist – Hank is intrinsic to the sound of the ensemble.

TR: In general it seems like the Arabic influence predominates over Persian modes and approaches to improvisation on this record (excepting of course what Hamin brings). Is that the case?

GG: I think that’s probably true melodically due to the fact that I’ve studied Arabic music a bit more than Persian music and I hear the oud more as an Arabic instrument than the traditional barbat used in Persian music. Timbre-wise it evens out though because of Hamin’s use of almost entirely traditional Persian percussion.

TR: What is the convergence that “Convergence” is referencing? I think I’m hearing an African influence in its simple, memorable (pentatonic?) melody, which is played with considerable feeling. But it’s perhaps more integrated with other elements than “Boubacar” was on Ejdeha, which was an overt homage to Boubacar Traore. Here and in “Gabriel James” it feels like you’re searching for a place where the music transcends differences, a sort of modern, pan-folk expression.

GG: There isn’t a direct convergence or overt combining but is more like an osmosis that brings together different influences like Boubacar, and Hamza El Din etc. with a sense of folk simplicity and directness. I think you’re right, we’re looking for a feeling of transcending differences and celebrating the similarities and connections between influences.

TR: “Illumination” has a peaceful vibe. The approach is quite heterophonic; by the end everyone is playing their own variations on the theme simultaneously. Quite different from the other pieces on the record, with Hamin taking a prominent role throughout. How did this piece come about?

GG: This is a composition of Hamin’s that is based on daf rhythmic variations and development. The melodic material is then developed with a sense of feeling these rhythms together without real solo sections but instead a sense of group interaction while living within a rhythmic structure.

TR: “Gabriel James” closes the record with a kind of anthem, folk chorale, or maybe elegy, played with great dignity and feeling. If there is sorrow here, there’s also consolation. What’s the story behind the music and the title? Is it referring to the young American indie/folk singer, or some other Gabriel James?

GG: It’s actually named after my son who was 4 at the time. He kind of wrote this song. We were up early together one morning, and he was strumming my oud with this rhythm and I was chording the harmony. We had this beautiful moment together where the music developed into a sort of trance where neither of us wanted to stop and we just played through the chords together for a while transfixed. This was especially poignant given the usual temperament of my son. I then wrote the melodies for the strings on top of this harmonic structure in a sort of chorale style. It has deep meaning for me and I think the band really created something beautiful out of it.